• General

  • Can we at least consider a referendum on hopping?

I've honestly been holding off posting this for a while, but after the experience I just had, I think it's time.

It seems like we're all willing to accept hopping as legal. However, I still can't understand why people don't realize it's cheating. It's a willful hacking of the game for personal benefit. It completely destroys the balance in most games so it's not really friendly towards the CTF directive.

I understand I can't do it. I don't WANT to know how to do it. In my personal opinion, it's cheating. I just wish the people on the server felt the same way.

Can we just have a vote and be done with it? I have to imagine the 95% of players on this server who can't hop would agree that the 5% of hoppers are just ruining the game for everyone else. It's chasing me, and quite likely others, off the server.

Bouncing is fun.
Whoever bounces is an easy target.
It does introduce a new dynamic into the CTF as the prediction of a bouncing target will be different due to possible speed.
(meaning that once I get alerted that my flag was stolen, if it is a bouncing player, he might not be in base anymore)

I get that a bouncing player might shift the balance of a game... but once again...
a really good aim player will also shift the balance..
a player boosting others will also shift the balance...
a spawnkiller will also shift the balance...
a camper will also shift the balance...

Maybe you just have to adapt your playing strategy..

There's players stating that boost is also "unfair"... so...

    Ann0ying I'm not saying your points are not valid. They very much are, and thank you for sharing them.

    I can see a world where players think that bouncing adds adds a special new dynamic to the game of CTF. And yes, sometimes, on some maps, a player who's bouncing makes themselves an easier target. But same maps just make it impossible to compete, so there's no consistency.

    Good aim, boosting and spawnkilling are all core components of the game. You can't control how good a player is or what ping they have. Boosting is built into the game, there's no way to NOT boost. And spawnkilling/camping, while occasionally annoying, are just another version of a 'play style', same as DMing or jerking off in a corner somewhere.

    But bouncing is not a 'play style'. It can't even be compared to boosting because it is a WILLFUL manipulation of the physics of the game. The game doesn't allow users to bounce by default, you have to go in and change the settings of your controls or of the game itself in order to make it happen.

    How can you not compare bouncing to aimbotting? Aimbotting is also a willful manipulation of the game for personal gain, a manipulation that must contravene the default settings of the game. I just don't understand how people can't see that they are the same thing.

    I think my opinion on bouncing is clear, but I also understand that I'm only one of many players. That's why I think the server needs a referendum. Let the players decide. I bet if we actually had that opportunity in a real way, the server would vote overwhelmingly to make it illegal. That's just my thought.

    I might feel differently about it if more than 5 people were doing it, but that's not the case. There's an incredibly small number of people who are bouncing on the server, some of them are also thought to be cheaters in other ways (like r or have_a_cigar), so that doesn't help its case.

    Thank you for the opportunity to discuss.

        UTNL
        I understand you. I know what it's like to be against something I can't do and/or don't understand how to do it. It's something like when a player writes in the chat that he doesn't like this map, just after he played it and lost.
        Generally, you are not alone with this expression. Sometimes players like this annoy me too, even more so when (what an irony of the situation) Annoying comes in halfway through a tight match, he hasn't warmed up yet and he's already capping the flag by bouncing. And I often had strong WTF! thoughts, but that didn't change my view on it.

        As for bouncing itself, I don't think it's a hack, because it wasn't created individually by someone who had cheating in mind. Some people believe that this is a bug, something that was created unconsciously by the programmer. I, however, believe that it was deliberately programmed, otherwise a patch would have been created long ago to remove this bouncing, especially since these patches are issued quite often for such an old game.
        Don't be offended, but I also disagree with you about people leaving the game in groups when they see someone doing that. Bouncing is, as Jerc says, a new stage, a new level of this old, boring game. Without it, the game would have been forgotten by now.
        What more can I tell you?
        -Try to learn. It's not as difficult as you think. All you need to do is assign a jump under the mouse wheel and practice a bit.
        Regards!

            player_0 Again, awesome points and thank you for sharing them. Not offended at all, everyone is welcome to their opinion, and I very much enjoy this forum as a means of sharing ideas with one another.

            I would be interested to hear more opinions on whether or not bouncing is a hack. I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'm fully willing to agree yet.

            I also have my own reservations about learning how to bounce myself. I'm sure I could get the hang of it if I set my mind to it, but I also see games dominated by bouncers and then everyone immediately jumps on them, calls them a cheat, and near kicks them out of the room. Do I want that kind of attention from other players? I'm not entirely sure. This is why I'm sort of calling for a referendum, because I think there's good opinions on both sides but, on the whole, it's a very polarizing issue and there is most definitely no consensus.

            But that's why we're here. To talk it out. Thanks again for your thoughts.

                player_0 Bouncing is, as Jerc says, a new stage, a new level of this old, boring game. Without it, the game would have been forgotten by now.

                Also, on this point specifically, isn't combogib with grapple enough excitement? I find normal weapons EXCEEDINGLY BORING and would never spend too much time playing, but I happen to think that combo + grapple is the Cadillac of mods in this game, and I think it's fine just the way it is. Again, that's MY opinion. Others are entitled to their own.

                    UTNL The game doesn't allow users to bounce by default, you have to go in and change the settings of your controls or of the game itself in order to make it happen.

                    this is not true. you can bounce without changing the controls. (for bouncing you never change the settings of the game)

                    It's, however, true that assigning the jump to the scroll wheel of the mouse helps to achieve bouncing. but it's not necessary.

                    Another thing is that, some players when they see a bouncing opponent, immediately change the way they play in order to neutralize the threat. Most of the times, making it impossible to me to do anything useful with bouncing...

                        UTNL But that's why we're here. To talk it out. Thanks again for your thoughts.

                        No problem. I am also a person open to thoughts. I like debates in which everyone can express their opinion, and the best ones are those in which a consensus is reached.

                        UTNL Also, on this point specifically, isn't combogib with grapple enough excitement?

                        It's hard to say whether combo+grapple without bouncing would be enough excitement. I have no opinion.
                        I know that from what I wrote above you could have concluded that I am a supporter of bouncing. I am neither a supporter nor an opponent. I can also play without bouncing, but what could be the consequences?
                        From the point of view of players who are "addicted" to bouncing, making it illegal may bring unintended consequences to the detriment of the server's popularity, and we don't want that.

                        It's actually good that you started this thread, maybe we'll learn something more...

                              I'm not a fan of bouncing and never have been. Having someone bouncing lessons the fun for me, and I choose not to as I know it lessons the fun for others and people get upset about it. At the end of the day, I play to chill and have fun and want it to be for others as well. Only exception might be when we are 60 minutes in and it's 0-0. If it was down to me it wouldn't be allowed, but it's not and I accept that.

                              player_0 As for bouncing itself, I don't think it's a hack, because it wasn't created individually by someone who had cheating in mind.

                              I agree with this, I don't think it's right to compare it to hacking or aimbotting. I view it more of a glitch, an unintended movement which never got patched out of the game. You can argue glitches shouldn't be abused, but I would also understand the counter argument of it being so well known by now that it's become part of the game. I wish it wasn't though!

                              Ann0ying Another thing is that, some players when they see a bouncing opponent, immediately change the way they play in order to neutralize the threat. Most of the times, making it impossible to me to do anything useful with bouncing...

                              This is completely true. I would describe myself as an attacking player, I like to grab the flag. In a non bouncing game I know that if an enemy grabs the flag, I'm likely going to get killed, spawn and get a shot off at the enemy flag carrier. However, if a bouncer grabs the flag it's likely I'm not going to get that chance. This makes me play a bit more defensively, and I'll prioritise killing an Ann0ying over others.

                              Ann0ying this is not true. you can bounce without changing the controls. (for bouncing you never change the settings of the game)

                              Yes, but realistically the only way to achieve consistent bounces is through scroll wheel jumping. So if you want to play with this style, changing controls is forced.

                              To summarise, I don't like bouncing and would prefer if it wasn't part of the game. However, not my choice so I accept it. I'm too old to change my mind. Mac puts it best.

                                    As others pointed out: bouncing is not hacking, since one don't apply any kind of external manipulation to game files or game executable process.
                                    Is it cheating? Debatable. Since it wasn't patched out even with community patches, and there's no rules prohibiting it on the server - it's not.
                                    It's annoying to deal with, especially when bouncer is covered by anyone with decent enough aim (or aimbot, kek), but it's hardly "chasing people off the server". Only instance I've seen ppl leaving server in large numbers - is when some particular player is playing (you know who).

                                    player_0 may bring unintended consequences to the detriment of the server's popularity, and we don't want that.

                                    It's only partially true. There's no competition for ESU as of now, really: I see like 2 public ctf servers with actual traffic (esu and smoking). So, one either plays here, or go try your luck with pugs (and I sincerely doubt that most players would bother doing that. Or mb it's just me).
                                    And seeing how much traffic goes through smoking server sometimes despite how poorly it runs - I think the only way ESu gonna lost players is by natural causes: player drops the game cuz of life circumstances or death.

                                    I wouldn't mind to see bouncing gone, but at that point there's really no reason in inflating server rules with more instances, especially since every additional rule will require time and effort to enforce and uphold.

                                      I'm confused how is hitting a button really fast cheating?

                                      Ahoy
                                      for me this has nothing to do with CTF anymore
                                      it's an old classic game so why go along with all the new shit.
                                      it may be fun for those who do it, but on some maps with good players you have almost no chance of catching the flag bearer.
                                      next year there will be flag beaming, that will be fun
                                      No, I don't need that and it should be abolished.

                                      Greetings from Bavaria

                                      Well there's this opinion circulating around that bouncing is a bug (or happens because of one).
                                      I don't know if it's the case, but it sure feels like it.
                                      And if you deliberately choose to use a bug, then you are cheating - simple as that.

                                        Meh I don't like it. I don't know it nor do I want to know it, reality is if you're killed during flag pickup on a small / mid small map you almost have no chance of catching the carrier.

                                        I can live with it tho since my focus is playing as a hobby, I'm way more annoyed with spawn camp killers, I'd ban those in an instant if it was up to me.

                                        Everybody should learn the technique, then. I don't see it going away anytime soon. Some people probably map vote based on known spawn points and how much spawn killing can do. It's sick and getting sicker. We have bigger fish to fry than bouncing. I'd love to see us keep the bouncing and delete the auto balance. Just my idea of more fun.

                                        Its simple this is not IG nobody gives a fuck about IG pug fucking rules go play on a IG server with the rest of the IG playing noobs

                                        Oh wait you can't because even IG players dont wanna play IG and all the servers are dead.

                                          Ooper wait, weren't bunnyhoping and all other acceleration techniques of quake based on a bug also?

                                          jerc even IG players dont wanna play IG and all the servers are dead

                                          Heh, funny you said that, cuz 2-3 days ago I saw 4 ig pug servers full with 10/10 players on each server.
                                          Most likely those servers stay empty from time to time is because setting up pug match takes more effort, than just jumping in on public server.

                                              That's all good they should stay on their little pug servers run their Pacman patterns shave every corner and blind fire every doorway. Remember these fools are pros cause they won 5 bucks one time or in Holdrs case never. If this server went to IG rules I wouldn't play here and it be full of Assholes like Holdr, Kenwhatever and UnrealAimBots.